betasp questions

[peter_g]

Hey everyone,
I have four concerns and questions about PAL betasp:

1. How expensive is a betasp deck and how much are the tapes? Is renting a viable option?

2. are they broadcast quality?

3. Are they digital, so theres no loss of quality after many generations?

4. Can I use a firewire connection or do I need something a bit more fancy? If I can use a firewire cable, can I maintain full broadcast quality?

finally, I saw betasp decks before and they were big huge f?ck off things the size of houses. Is there anything smaller and/or more practical that I can get super16 rushes on?

Thank you all

[assyrix]

1) Used BetaSP cameras can be had for around ?1250.-, used recorder from ?800.-, tapes are around ?10.50.- for 20min to ?27.- for 90min.

2) Yes. But miraculously, so are most things you copy onto a BetaSP tape. People have submitted VHS and Hi8 footage on BetaSP and it was accepted by the studio simply because it arrived on a BetaSP tape.

3) Nope, they're analog, so you're losing quality over conversions. They also screwed up the sequel, DigiBeta, which, despite being digital, needs to be converted since there are no codecs afaik that play native DigiBeta on a computer. But you can grab single frames over a V-LAN, which is nice.

4) No, firewire is DV only. High-quality analog capture cards are your friends.

BetaSP is a dying format. My DV camcorder (JVC GY-DV500E, used from ?2.500.-) produces slightly superior footage than BetaSP and it's all digital without any further loss in quality. If you edit yourself get a decent DV recorder or camera and copy the footage to DVCAM. If you can afford it, use DigiBeta. Used recorders start around ?5.000.- and capture cards can be had from ?1.000.- for 10Bit SD capture.

[assyrix]

Just remembered - your footage is 16mm, right? Somebody posted a link here ages ago about a 16mm film scanner for around $1.650.- which might be interesting for you.

[peter_g]

So could I get my rushes sent back from the lab on miniDV? Is that broadcast quality? I know the camera's themselfs usually are'nt, but are the tapes? Could I just digitise with a good miniDV camcorder? I can't afford digibeta, unless by ?5.000 you ment five pounds and just put in all those zero's after the decimal point for good measure. Theres has to be a simpler solution!

[Alex]

Originally posted by assyrix:
1) Used BetaSP cameras can be had for around ?1250.-, used recorder from ?800.-, tapes are around ?10.50.- for 20min to ?27.- for 90min.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Are you sure about the recorder prices? That seems awfully low. Used BetaCam SP video decks still command a minimum of 50% ro 60% of their original purchase price on eBay.

The issue of BetaCam SP tape lengths they make a 30 min BetaCam SP tape for virtually the identical cost as the 20 minute tape.

Originally posted by assyrix:

2) Yes. But miraculously, so are most things you copy onto a BetaSP tape. People have submitted VHS and Hi8 footage on BetaSP and it was accepted by the studio simply because it arrived on a BetaSP tape.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That is a supersimplification of the situation. A VHS or 8mm tape that arrives to a studio on BetaCam Sp simply means the studio can work with it more easily than if it arrived on VHS. However, you can't just slop on a VHS copy to BetaCam SP. There are approximiately 7-10 quality control issues that the "slopper" must know about to ensure a proper VHS or HI-8 bump to BetaCam SP

Originally posted by assyrix:

3) Nope, they're analog, so you're losing quality over conversions. They also screwed up the sequel, DigiBeta, which, despite being digital, needs to be converted since there are no codecs afaik that play native DigiBeta on a computer. But you can grab single frames over a V-LAN, which is nice.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">BetaCam SP is a quart of information wherein a small amount gets exponentially "spilled" each time you copy BetaCam SP to BetaCam SP. DV is a pint of frozen information that doesn't spill.

More important than generation loss is "tracking" loss. BetaCam SP holds up quite nicely for a 2-3 generations as long as you have optimized the tracking knob for the best possible picture.

If you "freeze" the BetaCam SP signal by digitizing it, it won't keep losing information. However, DV-CAM codecs are still not of high enough quality to capture all of the BetaCam SP quality.

Bottom line is DV-CAM can have deceptively nice color, as nice or even slightly better than BetaCam SP. Where DV-CAM falls apart is in the luminance ringing that occurs on objects that are at angles or diagonals.

Originally posted by assyrix:

4) No, firewire is DV only. High-quality analog capture cards are your friends.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This is why DV is so popular. It uses less mb/sec
than analog codecs to achieve an equal to possibly superior result. This makes it easier for the computer to handle more data with the same amount of gigabyte space and then render/process the digital codecs at a faster pace and with slower harddrives than if one were loading in from BetaCam SP via analog inputs.

DV codecs are the "cheetahs", BetaCam SP is the tried and true elephant.


[quote]Originally posted by assyrix:

BetaSP is a dying format. My DV camcorder (JVC GY-DV500E, used from ?2.500.-) produces slightly superior footage than BetaSP and it's all digital without any further loss in quality. [QUOTE]Originally posted by assyrix:
[QB]

I disagree entirely. Digital cameras produce great results in certain situations. But when it comes to canoodling the picture by toggling the f-stop ring, setting time-code, or using XLR interfaces, or sticking the camera on a Sachtler tripod for smooth camera moves and zoom ins, the Beta-Cam SP cameras are still superior.

Digital cameras rock when it comes to grabbing and getting a shot cinema verite or in tight quarters and when you don't want to make your subject nervous or draw attention to yourselves. In other words there is room for both!

Originally posted by assyrix:
[QB]
If you edit yourself get a decent DV recorder or camera and copy the footage to DVCAM. If you can afford it, use DigiBeta. Used recorders start around ?5.000.- and capture cards can be had from ?1.000.- for 10Bit SD capture.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">BetaCam SP is a far more affordable format than Digi-Beta. BetaCam SP and Digi-Beta are also the video formats of choice for live-event video playback roll ins because the tape is not filmsy and the tape operators would rather hit play on a BetaCam SP or Digi-Beta video deck versus a DV-Cam or computer source.

DV-CAM is not a true archiveable format, so once you have made a DV-CAM edit master, you would be wise to make TWO back-ups to TWO BetaCam SP or Digital BetaCam Tapes. (depending on which you can afford).

[Alex]

You can't get what you want, yet.

There currently are ultra high-end proprietary systems being designed for larger corporations that will do exactly what you want, but they won't be available to the general public at an affordable price for, who knows how long, and in many instances these corporations will be purchasing accompanying software specifically designed for their own needs.

You really should "master" your film onto some video format. Your primary, affordable choices are Digital Betacam and BetaCam SP.

In the near future, HD recording and editing will probably be more mainstream and affordable. Final Cut Pro IV offers an HD option, but I no nothing about it at this point other than it might require
an additional investment of at least $10,000 to get the necessary HD set-up to make it go.

For right now, If you make a DV-CAM digital copy from your Beta-Cam SP or Digital BetaCam master
WITH MATCHING TIME-CODE, you will have the best of both worlds.

You edit your DV-CAM version in your system, then when you are finished your Edit Decision List can be used to batch capture/edit your Digital BetaCam master tapes in an actual edit bay comprised of either Digital BetaCam Decks and/or ultra-high end Non-linear Avids.

This would be done in an edit suite charging minimum $200.00 an hour, but if your EDL is proper, your hours spent in this room hopefully won't be much.

You may be pleasantly surprised at how good your DV-CAM version looks and might decide to forgo the final on-line Digital BetaCam batch-capture/edit step.

A simplified version to the above would be, HD, their world. DV-CAM, your world.

[Kigo]

Betacam was the technology back in the day because it was the best thing available. DV on a half decent camera is broadcast quality, if it says 3CCD then you're in. Tapes are cheap and production costs are low. I can name several times when I've been channel flicking late at night and those sex shows are on where they show you the behind the scenes stuff. They're always using my camera! Maybe I'm making films for the wrong reason. Anyone ever made a ***** ? Any tips on how to get started?

The canon XL-1s is state of the art, and it's little bro the xm-2 is the affordable version (ish ?1800).

Bubbles likes my banana!

[Kigo]

That should say p0rno!!

Hey I got two stars now!!! Wicked!!!

[Alex]

But the discussion is not about digital cameras, it's about the best method for recapturing film onto video or as a high resolution computer file.

[peter_g]

Lets assume for a second that kigo is correct in saying that dv is broadcast quality. Then What I'd do is get a copy of my negative on miniDV and digitise with a borrowed canon XL-1. I'd take about six months to do a really good job at editing, then I'd borrow it again and export onto mini DV. This option would be fine. I would'nt want timecode printed on the bottom of the screen because then the audience would see it . Timecode would'nt concern me because I'm never going to deal with something as messy as an EDL this early in my career. What I'm talking about is editing the way you edit miniDV, through premiere pro. The only difference is that it will be shot on super 16 (not beta anything) and then the raw unedited negetive (not rushes, who needs them) will be copied to minidv, and then edited on computer the way you normally edit mini dv. It would then stay on tape forever. I'm sorry if theres been a brake down in communication, I'm highly confused. This is how Robert Rodriguez shot El Mariachi, except he used some kind of linear editing setup rather then the non-linear computer edit suite,premiere pro, that I intend to use.

Interesting fact: If you watch the El Mariachi DVD, the quality is kinda ******. This is because its taken off a print that the distributor made. If you look at the ten minute film school special feature on the same disk, you'll see some of the same footage only it looks much better because it was a copy of the original negative rather then some dusty old print. It looks gorgeous, and it could pass for 35mm (Rodriguez himself says this, I agree with him)

Thats what I wanted to do. Us "getting our wires crossed" is probably my bad, so sorry about that.

Thanks